Kate Toon is an Award-winning SEO copywriter and SEO consultant, With over two decades of experience in all things advertising, digital and writing she has worked with big brands such as eHarmony, Curash and Kmart. And she’s helped countless small businesses produce great content, improve their copy writing and SEO to find success in business.
Kate recently published her popular business book, The Confessions of a Misfit Entrepreneur, and is the host of 2 Podcast shows – Hotcopy -the secrets of successful copywriters & The recipe for SEO Podcast.
Originally from the UK but now based just outside Sydney, Kate is also the founder of The Clever Copywriting School and The Recipe for SEO Success eCourse and is the founder of The Copywriting Conference – Australia’s first dedicated Copywriting Conference.
We covered so many fun topics including:
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Christine 0:05 Well, welcome to the podcast Kate. I’m so excited to get into this conversation today. Kate 0:11 I’m excited to be here. Sorry, there was a bit of a pause there. But I was like, Yes, it’s good to be here. Hello. Christine 0:19 So I was literally just saying to you, I was down the whole vortex of everything Kate Toonis all about and I’m so excited, and I’m impressed and just blown away with everything that you do, and everything that your business encompasses. So just to get started, Could you just tell us a little bit about your journey of becoming an entrepreneur and how that’s been happening for the last however many I don’t want to have to put years on it but however many years that’s been Kate 0:48 it’s been it’s actually been about 10 years I should I should work that out I’m sure LinkedIn will send me a reminder to tell me at some point but it’s been about 10 years and the first five or six I was a copywriter purely focusing on doing SEO copywriting for big brands around Australia and around the world and that went really well like I was doing pretty well as decent money but you know there’s only so many hours in the week and you get to the point where you can charge so much and I realized that that was going to limit not so much my earning potential but my freedom like you know I had to work all the hours I had, to make the money but I mean so about seven years ago I decided to start looking into you know, multiple income sources and passive income hahaha and I’ll talk about that a bit more I’m sure but you know so that’s when I went down the route of setting up other businesses. So the clever copywriting school which teaches copywriters to be better copywriters and the recipe for SEO success which teaches small business owners and solid colors how to get to grips with Google. And then from there other things popped up podcast books, courses, memberships, shops, you name it, speaking, conferences, events, workshops, and it’s all kind of snowballed, and I’m stuck in the vortex of Kate Toon. You can get out again. But I can’t Kate 2:09 pity. pity me. Christine 2:11 So what would you say the best part of your week is? Kate2:15 I love doing, I love to podcast like this. I love chatting to other business owners, making connections for me this year has really been about making connections with other business people and finding friends and common interest. So I love that I love speaking I spoken at 37 events and show Kate 2:34 I know it’s insane. But it was a deliberate strategy to get over my fear. And to actually get to the point where I love it. Like, I enjoy it. I get like, get up on stage. Like I’m like, I’m Beyonce, saying you know, it strut my stuff. And you should see me two years ago, I kind of shuffled on stage, shaking. And so yeah, I think I think speaking, speak I love the sound of my own voice. Christine. It’s terrible. Christine 2:57 But I think to you have so much value to offer. When I saw you speak at an event here in Brisbane, it was you know, I love how you bring all the humor into it. And I love it how you just real but you still add a lot of value. Is that something that you are really focused on? Kate 3:13 Yeah, I mean, I loathe going to see speakers or listening to podcast where it’s all just abstract fluff and nonsense. I really like to get into the nitty gritty, I’ll be very honest about my failures and successes and the literal how I did it. But you know, I think a lot of entrepreneurs, they kind of show the magic trick. And really, what you want to see is how they did the magic trick. And that, to do that, you’ve got to pay for that seven figure course. You know, I don’t want to do that. So I feel like I have enough knowledge that I can give a chunk of it away, and the still going to be more you know, I’m not going to run out. Do you know what I mean? And, you know, it’s not going to by me helping other people and sharing my knowledge. It’s not going to stop people buying from me, or using me or wanting my services, there’s enough to go around to, you know, and, and the humor and stuff is, I just think people take business very seriously and take themselves very seriously. And if you’re not, you won’t have any of this. You should say it’s state of me today. Like literally like I’ve been dragged to the hedge. It’s just, you know, we’re not all polished, beautiful, competent beings. Most of us are struggling. And I just think that honesty is it’s reassuring, to be honest. Christine 4:23 Yeah. Real. Absolutely. Yeah. And I love how you said that. Because it’s something that you were saying how and that you not necessarily have to know all the answers and, you know, figure it out along the way. But I love it, how you consistently add lots of value. And so many people are so scared to do that early on in their journey. When you have Do you often have people aske you that, like, you know, I don’t want to give away too much that people won’t pay for what I’m going to give them. Kate 4:53 How do yeah, I mean, I think at the end of the day, most everything we need to know is on the Google, you know, like someone selling an Instagram course telling you how to do this, I did all I if I really wanted to find out, I could read 50 blog posts. And I know probably as much as the person and but the differences is the lived experience. I think that really does help. And, and also, you know, even if you tell someone how to do a thing, most people don’t want to do it themselves. They can’t be bothered, you know, so they’ll always be people want your services. And look there will be a small percentage of people who will take your free stuff, your advice, you have knowledge, and they will never buy from you, you know, just they just never will. But you can run your business worrying about those people. And funnily enough, I, you know, I have a group for Facebook to give SEO tips. And I see people join that group. And some of them have been there for years and asked me literally hundreds of questions and never bought a thing. And it almost, you know, a couple years ago, got to a point like I’m going to delete them at the group. This is not our listeners. Not that and then whatever. I’ve had that thought. And next round, they bought these calls. Not me, I hadn’t said anything. But sometimes it takes people like 2,3, 4 years to get to the position where they have the time, the money, that inclination to work with you. I’ve even had people send me emails going, finally, I have something I can work on. You will have been following me to two years now. And if you caught this, but you know what I mean? And yeah, that people are waiting. So yeah, I’d never be afraid about giving too much away. My only advice to be focus more on the water in the wise and maybe keep a little bit of the how back. Yeah, so I talk a lot about what SEO is why it’s important, why you should be doing it. But the how, keep a little bit of that back, because that’s my expertise, then you could talk a lot around your subject without giving away all your secrets. Christine 6:44 But there’s just something about that. How is it isn’t it funny how all the information is there, but people still want someone else to do it for them all. They still need their hand held as they do it, Kate 6:54 or they need to explained in a different way. I read some stuff that said, people need to hear something seven times before it goes into their brain. And, you know, maybe they’re breathable. I mean, I can’t tell you how many blog posts I’ve read about Instagram, for example, none of it stuck in my head. I’ve got folders full of articles I intend to read. And then you know, you have a 10 minute chat with an expert. And they tell you one or two things and you implement those one or two things. And that’s the difference because sometimes it’s not about what you need to do. It’s like if I could do one thing, what should I do? Because really only got time to do one thing. And then what’s the next thing? So it’s the order the priority and the impact I think we can really get help from from an expert either. Unknown 7:36 Yeah, absolutely. So he tells us about how you have created the success in your business. And you mentioned before that it’s literally without paying for much advertising at all. Unknown 7:47 Yeah, so I saw strangely against paying for ads. I don’t know why I’ve got a little bit of Google remarketing. And I tried one Facebook campaign about three years ago for my my course. But even then, it was a meet somebody who one person you bought, and that campaign was on my list. So I already might be my customer. So I kind of feel a bit like, That’s not fair. We got them anyway. Unknown 8:12 It’s just simply like spending money. It’s not that I’m tight. But like, I’m like, Well, you know, every round I run the course I’m like, this is the round where I’m going to have to pay that because surely I’ve tapped out my audience. Now there’s no less. But inside this round that actually got someone to set up some Google ads and some remarketing. And on the morning, I launched my course I emailed him and said, the consensys going and then by the time they email me back that already sold out. So it was like, Whoa, yeah, Unknown 8:45 I need and what it does, I think is it it is actually a story that helps my brand because I built my business on SEO and content marketing. And I’m teaching people how to do SEO and content marketing. If I was getting people on my course, by paying thousands of dollars for ads, it would kind of negate what I’m trying to sell. You know what I mean? So it’s almost the proof of my pudding. And so yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s been interesting. It’s pretty much all through SEO, that’s how I built it. And now very much Facebook, social media, Facebook groups, that’s where I put my focus these days. Unknown 9:16 What’s your focus when it comes to content marketing, Unknown 9:21 I don’t have focus when it comes to content marketing. So I’m not a planner. And I don’t have any kind of content marketing strategy. I don’t have a plan. I don’t map out my Instagram posts for the next 60 days. I don’t, I don’t know what I’m going to blog about next week. I have no idea what I’m doing. Next one, I really just do what I felt like doing on The Daily Show you that’s the joy the joy of what we do. I mean, I have themes I talk about copywriting and SEO, I have a tone of voice and I have values. So but then we’ll just need which means I don’t have to refer to some brand guidelines. Think about what I’m going to post because I just post whatever comes into my head. And I very Don’t worry too much about you know, this post doesn’t go off. Who cares? The next one, like I just, I just don’t care. I just if you look, if you’ve been in the vortex, you’ll see that it’s quite sporadic. Like some days, I’ll post 20 things The next day, nothing. I’ll post a really great SEO tips, then the next five posts will be pictures of my dog. And it all seems to seems to work I Unknown 10:19 don’t know about. Unknown 10:21 But I think I sound like I’m clueless. But I do know how it’s because it’s that word. I’m going to do our fingers. It’s authentic and real. And I’m in you know, I think people can tell that can see the enthusiasm what I do. I love social media. I love talking to people online and having a gig or having some bands sharing useful stuff. That’s silly stuff. And, and I think that enthusiasm and positivity comes through. And that’s what makes it work. Yeah, it’s it’s inconsistent. It’s a bit messy, and make a lot of spelling mistakes. But the divide is good. You know, Unknown 10:54 something’s people’s bullshit meters. It’s just Unknown 10:59 it’s so attuned now, like because we’re so sick of being sold to. We’re so sick of you can really read the posts that people have spent so long putting together and I can’t even deal with reading a post that longer than three paragraphs, understand either way too much time into it. I can’t even deal and sometimes like without events that we do. And the girl that I ran them with, she’ll do the posts, and sometimes so long. I’m like, dude, I didn’t want to read that. Unknown 11:26 Yeah, I know, I mean, all of it. Like, I write some of my best posts while I’m cooking in the evening, and I’m having a glass of wine. And I write them and they come out really well, because I’m not in business mode. And in different mode when friends slipped sideways a little bit. And yes, obviously, I read them and the next morning, and that’s sort of typos, but the message is there and those ones go down really, really well. The ones where I gave a really amazing, useful SEO tip with insight and stats, tumbleweeds, no clicks on that no one likes them. I think, you know, especially on Facebook. I don’t know if we necessarily that to learn and I always can be salty. I think that have a good time. I think we’re there to have a good time and mate, mate, mate, finance, you know, go to LinkedIn. If you want to learn stuff. It’s boring as hell. And but, you know, if you really want to learn stuff, you do a course you read a blog, but Facebook, I think it’s just about interaction and having fun and being memorable Unknown 12:22 across the nation tool. Yeah, but it works. You know, it works. It works. Awesome. So tell me, at what point in your business did you figure that you needed to stop working towards time versus money? Unknown 12:36 I think it’s something I’m still I’m still working on. So last year, I had like, an amazing, amazing, I’m not very good at math, but I own five times as much as the year before. So it’s a huge leap for me. And, and, and it was really on satisfactory. Sounds really bad, doesn’t it? Like the years you know, I’d be like, I need to crack it’s bigger. Why I made that figure out. But no, it’s just some random figure. And then you crack it and you realize an awful lot of money doesn’t actually come back to you. Unknown 13:03 Because, you know, Unknown 13:04 even though I’m a limited company, and I do profit first and split my money up, you know, it’s not like about buying a Lamborghini and if you point to some, I did contrived Unknown 13:15 and it was, it was like, Okay, great. I made some money. Now what you know, and so I think this year, it’s been more about I really want to enjoy my life a little bit more about my business life and my personal life. I love my business. I’m not one of these people is like, you know, you’ve got to work to live, not live to work. I love my business. I love coming into my office. I love what I do. And I’ve no shame about that. But not what I did was quite boring. So this year, I spent a lot of time traveling, speaking at events, running workshops. Networking, does it make noodles of money? No. Do I enjoy it? Yes. And it’s I wanted to that balance a bit more so and probably still spending the same amount of time we still going to make similar money. But I just wanted to ask you to join levels. I want to have some fun, because otherwise, I’m going to go and work for the man. You know, like if the fun levels I’m trying to increase. Unknown 14:07 Yeah, that’s awesome. That’s a great perspective. Like, otherwise, why the hell even here? Like, I know, the thing is, it’s Unknown 14:14 a luxury. And, you know, speaking events is an expensive business, because you don’t often get paid, you know, maybe travel cover costs that covers your hotel, sometimes you get a fee, but very rarely. And you know, even when I run workshops, I don’t charge the earth. I’m not making gazillion dollars. But it’s just exciting as let’s go to another city state. And I say, Tell me able to meet people, share your knowledge, get that feedback at face to face interaction. I love it. And in great this year, I’ve really enjoyed it. Unknown 14:45 That’s awesome. So what have you learned about yourself during that journey of Unknown 14:51 public speaking? Unknown 14:53 I’m a lot actually. I mean, I, that’s why I delivered so much. And I wanted to be able to walk on stage and just feel super confident. You know, I wanted to know, I can always tell me the night before thinking about my presentation. And, you know, I’ve learned that you will get heckled I’ve been here called a few times, I’ve been asked questions that I actually had no idea what the answer was. And it was, it’s okay, it’s fine that you get through and, and, you know, I love that people don’t really understand what a lot of people don’t understand what public speaking is about. They try and disseminate as much information as possible. I like the like, I’ve got to make people take loads of this information in and their slides are covered and bullets and text, it’s a performance it’s a performance speaking and some people walk away with maybe one or two things that they remember from your actual presentation that people are there to be entertained. They are there to be educated but honestly if you want to be educated will read a blog post will do an online course and that an event I need some pizzazz I want someone on stage he doesn’t claim to the lectern and reader knows I want someone who leaps about that makes a joke, makes it fun has engaging slides. I think that’s what I’ve realized that it is a performance and it’s not about the presentation like the presentations 30 minutes, but I’m at the amendment for two full days. It’s everything else that I do at the event that makes the difference. You know, do I get drunk good at the after party who I sit next to it lunch what you know who I bump into? I talked to so that’s the real benefit. I think. And I think people don’t see that that’s the real benefit. Hmm, Unknown 16:27 very true. So what would you say one of your biggest challenges has been over the last 10 years Unknown 16:33 I think the challenge has have changed and you know early years it was having a baby I started my business when I was five months pregnant. So the first year I was you know, food feeding and with one arm and typing with the other and then a lot of financial difficulties you know, I got in debt with the tax office I had that whole feast and famine thing going on and having lots wonder no money that lots of money than no money and dealing with difficult clients for a long time and I thought great when I stopped being a copywriter I’ll have no clients but what I’ve done is exchange for clients a month or two two and a half thousand clients and different courses and so now i think it’s it’s what my friend Carrie X to call summit syndrome and not but I’m you know, hugely fabulously successful. But I’ve kind of ticked off everything I wanted to do. Like I’ve got to the top of the mountain and either I create another mountain to climb or sit on this existing mountain or a client back down. I don’t know. So it’s bit like now it’s like what next? You know, because I’m a person who needs a carrot on the end of this thick otherwise the stick just becomes a stick to beat myself when I’m searching for my next carrot right now. That’s that’s what that’s what my current issues do you find yourself Unknown 17:46 Do you really struggle on finishing things? or do something that you love starting things? Or is it the maintaining that you struggle Unknown 17:52 I think I’m pretty No one likes finishing things, let’s be honest, your love starting them and but I’m pretty good at forcing myself to complete things. For me, it’s, it’s the maintenance. So for example, I have this big SEO course there’s 100 videos and 40 worksheets hundred videos. And the problem with SEO is it changes and and it’s changed quite a lot in the last year. The whole ethos so shifted the whole mentality or shifted. So it’s not like I can replace individual videos where there’s a character count wrong or button in the wrong place. It’s like I need to change the voice of the whole course. So I’m not looking forward to that. So I’ll be sending my January doing and I will do my time and I will sit down I will remove all those videos because then that pays for me to enjoy the rest of the year. If you want to make sentences built. Once it’s done, I sell it three times a year. That’s the majority man Come on, Mike all pretty much all my income on three days of the year. And so it’s worth the effort Unknown 18:49 now. Unknown 18:50 Yeah, and then maintaining it. And the analogy I use is, you know, like if you’re a pop star, and you’ve got famous for singing this number one song and every time you turn off at a gig that’s what people want to hear. And you’re like you about all this new material when you Unknown 19:02 album no one cats and that’s Unknown 19:05 and sometimes I do get a bit like I can’t talk about SEO anymore. And but if I give myself a break. I’m talking a lot about conversion, copyright and sales pages and pages this year. And then I can come back to SEO again because it gets boring you know, doing the same thing every day Unknown 19:23 to talk actually at the last event that I saw you about sales and how much you actually love sales. Was it about sales that you learn all about the conversion writing that you love? Unknown 19:33 Well, I think a lot of people put off sales because I think it’s sleazy and like American infomercial, Lee and you know, big claims and oh my god this is the best course ever. But really for me it’s about having conversations and really understanding what makes your customers tick and then writing really conversational copy like I love to write as I talk slightly better than I talk just for some reason I sound a bit copy and this interview I don’t know why Unknown 20:00 I just love making that connection is a I’m a copywriter at heart I love being able to put together you know you put together a beautiful sentence you read that back and you go Unknown 20:10 oh Unknown 20:10 that was a good sentence all that was a good joke. I love that and so you know that’s what I’m trying to focus on that moment teaching people how to sell without feeling like they’re being sleazy like they’re lying like that over promising because you’re not really when someone hits your sales page, all they’re looking for is reassurance reassurance that the decision they’re about to make is the right one reassurance that the money they’re going to spend is going to be well spent. And you can reassure them because you believe in what you’re as long as you believe in what you’re selling and you think the offering something good and all you’re doing is explaining that someone who wants to hear and when you take that approach it becomes a conversation not a pitch you know I think pitching is where people are trapped in a room being sold to and they don’t want to be in its proper conversion copywriter is chatting someone through their objections, their fears and just explaining them away and helping them feel better about the decision that they already kind of want to make. You Unknown 21:05 know You make it sound so easy Yeah. After Unknown 21:10 I literally get stuck in that copywriting headspace of this. None of this is making sense. Is there any key suggestions that you have for someone writing copy? Unknown 21:20 Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest the biggest, the biggest one is that like, record yourself, take notes and have a chat with someone else and have them ask you questions about your product. Like, who’s it for? And what’s good about it, and what am I going to get out of it. And you literally just all Unknown 21:37 add up your Bible icon babbling a little bit now. Unknown 21:39 And then record that don’t read scope transcribed. And you’re gonna be some gems in there. And some real Idioms and Expressions that only you use, you know, we’ve all got a little weird phrases and turns of phrase, so the things you need to put in your copies and its really essentially very you it’s not vanilla, I think the worst thing people can do is, you know, have someone else’s sales page up and try and not look, copy it bigger. Like all they’ve got this, I should have this, they’ve got this, you know, they’re reading their language. And it just doesn’t sound like you. Because, you know, when someone buys from you, whatever you’re selling, ultimately, they’re probably going to connect with you. Yeah, so someone buys my course now then doing my course they’re going to see 100 videos of me going to hear my voice for Unknown 22:23 our words, Unknown 22:24 if it’s not the same experience on the sales page is going to be a disconnect like true though I try and make myself page almost like very me. Like I think the first line on my pages like SEO is a giant pain in the bum, isn’t it? You know, now that will not appeal to everybody and won’t appeal to your seat the straight business person, but I don’t want them because they’re going to hate the course they’re going to hate me and they’re going to leave unhappy and it’s something I say all the time to coming a bit of a mantra but good marks and good sales is as much about repelling as it is about attracting I want people who want me to send are going to be happy with me. I don’t want people who are a bit indecisive and they’re thinking like, Well, I’m not sure she doesn’t seem a good go away. Don’t I don’t want you because you’ll end up being a customer that hates the experience. And then I have an awful emotional time with you. And then you’ll go away and say bad things about me. So you know, to me Unknown 23:15 completely, Unknown 23:16 cut them out Quick, get rid of them quick and just get the people who are really wanting, you know, yeah, Unknown 23:20 let’s see. And I think I often tell clients like don’t be, don’t be fearful of people dropping off the email they select. Don’t be scared of people writing comments that aren’t necessarily positive. Like if they’re not your people. They want your people like Unknown 23:33 wow, and it’s how you respond to them. I mean, God the number of trolls I’ve had over the years we put an awful things on my wall. But now I’m like, thank you. Thank you so much of just giving me a brilliant piece of social media content. Because how I respond to you, you know, thousand people read your comment 3000 people read my reply, you know, it’s that it’s that terrible review that gets left on TripAdvisor. It’s how the hotel owner responds that makes you decide whether you’re going to stay there are not because we all know that people right stupid things and the emotion that is the person owns it is that honest if I handle it with grace and it can actually be more of a sales split sales appointment you think of you know Unknown 24:13 absolutely really shows tree character doesn’t it does definitely So tell me a little bit about like your book you’ve written a book the entrepreneur which is a cool title love that Unknown 24:26 about the book Unknown 24:28 well I guess you know I don’t embrace the phrase that entrepreneur warmly I feel a bit about it because, you know, usually it’s some dude lying on a Porsche counting cash, you know, and I’m quite scruffy as a set of don’t have never had a business plan on quiet and emotional business person. I’m not to be logical, rational thought should I say that. And so I really wanted to write a book that it’s like look, you can earn six figures, seven figures without doing all these things you’re supposed to do without you know, having the workspace with being bad without having a business plan without without any of that stuff. Because I’ve done it here’s how I did it. And it’s got advice in it and tips and little exercises but it’s it’s funny it’s not a proper its proper business book. It’s not it’s business or light, you know, it’s a good rely on people read it, read it in a day journey, because they’re just like, it’s a giggle, it’s fun, but there are useful insights in there as well. And, and also I just wanted to write a book because it’s pretty exciting when they come and get that smell than this. And you know, it’s a tangible I made this thing wickedness but now I’m trying to write my next book Unknown 25:36 which is going to be called be more sharp, introduce my little sharp here Unknown 25:42 and I’m writing the next book is going to be about business bravery, and the fears and stuff we have around business and how to overcome those. So a lot of things we’ve been talking about today, you know, the, the foam over comparison, ISIS, the imposter syndrome, the copycats all that kind of stuff that’s holds us back from being more sharp and just attacking or business getting things done Unknown 26:06 is there any one of those that has been a key thing for you to be able to overcome I think the Unknown 26:12 worrying about competitors not necessarily comparing myself but just more feeling that people are nipping at my heels so you know I make a thing and then a couple of months later someone else makes pretty much essentially the same thing or you know someone does my course and then they launched a very similar course to mine and it you know you know it’s it’s hard I have big community is a copyrighted is for example you know some of the people in my community community there was an engineering communities but every my community they’re launching templates their health resources courses podcasts all similar to mine you know and it’s like it feels a bit know but then I just so really I wasted a lot of time and emotion worrying about that but you know the truth is there is enough to go around and that’s so cliche and also I can’t have everybody Unknown 27:06 and Unknown 27:08 the clients that didn’t want you and you didn’t want them Unknown 27:11 and you know some people just aren’t gonna like my style like my voice right the way I look that’s perfectly fine and and often you know I run a podcast with my friend Belinda and she has exactly the same offer reside zoom memberships causes she’s building up to have exactly pretty much what I have and that could be a bit threatening but some people have the lender on the podcast they don’t like me very much and some people who love me and they’re not so crazy about Belinda but some people like us both and by both are things so and the truth is as well no matter how much I dislike it or feel threatened by it or get upset by it there’s nothing I can do about it I can’t stop I can’t go to the competitive and say stop I can’t so it’s easy just got to get over it so you’re quick right we’ve got over it the better so now I just do not work on no one’s listening no one’s great you know I don’t want to know anyone people sometimes send me stuff and go hey this is like the exact copy of your sales page and they put it on their page and like have at a good on them you know I want a new sales page great you’ve inspired me muscle Unknown 28:14 cells ventures not going to be even better all I’ll just go Unknown 28:17 What’s the chances of both people seeing both sales pages most to share? So that’s my biggest thing, I think. Yeah, but it’s a hard one. Believe it hard 1 Unknown 28:27 billion daily challenge. It is it is most definitely, I think to for very much. So for people starting out. We often fill our social medias with other people to do what we do. And then it gets you that comparison mode all the time think that what you’re putting out is actually the same as what everybody else is putting out. But when you actually really tap into exactly how you do you deliver always something different. And you be able to what you’re saying before, connect with the right people that want to work with you. And you do it in a way that they needed to hear for it to them. Yeah, Unknown 29:03 and that’s the thing. That’s why it’s so important that you bring as much of you into your marketing as possible so that people are making a choice. They’re choosing it because you’re not vanilla, you know, they’ve got 600 vanilla options to choose from. And you are mint chocolate chip and your proudly mint chocolate chip. And if people don’t like mint chocolate, fine going on a vanilla people. But if you try to be all things to all people, and then there is no choice there’s no point of differentiation and they will choose your competitor. You know people are going to choose the person that clicks with them. So you have to give them some things to click on. You know, Unknown 29:34 that’s that’s the point. I think it’s awesome advice. So has been what’s been one of your proudest moments over the 10 years of being an entrepreneur Unknown 29:44 I think Unknown 29:46 I had a moment I don’t if you’ve heard of Robert garish he was flying solo solo printer PVC. And Unknown 29:54 you can read that book. Yes, yes. He’s got a few books. Yeah. Unknown 29:57 And but he wants said to me, you know, imagine you’re on you’re on stage and everyone’s clapping you and you’re being handed a reward. What is it for, you know, instead, it’s a really good way of getting clarity on what you want your business and at the time I think I said it was fun, you know, writing a young adult novel or something, which is something I would love to do that later in life. But then recently I was on stage everyone was clapping I wasn’t being hands you know what I was being handed I think a bag of crisps or something. But it wasn’t my conference, the copywriting conference, it was the end of the day, you know, bringing all the speakers on stage and my team came up and they had a present for me and I was saying thank you. And the whole room stood up and clapped for me and it was like I did this this huge venue patchy people for all these people that I did this and I don’t know anything about events and only what we’re doing but it was a nice outfit on as well. So I felt Unknown 30:50 I felt glamorous It was just that was awesome that was a really proud moment Unknown 30:56 awesome it must make all of those 100 days that you just so sick of talking about SEO copywriting all worthwhile. Unknown 31:04 Yeah, I think that this tiny moments as well. And I’m sure you have them to. So that was a big glamorous moment. But even sometimes someone will just send me a Facebook message saying, you know, I just read your entire book while sitting in the bath water is cold. And, and it made me cry and laugh. And thank you so much for writing it. And that can be a moment where you go boom, you know, Wow, thank you. That’s pretty awesome. You know, so little things like that can be pretty impressive as well. Unknown 31:30 Awesome. And so you mentioned to you got a couple of kids and you’re married. And you’ve got three podcasts of the guy and couple of online courses and like, Oh, my God like this so much that you offer. And how do you juggle all of that? You say Unknown 31:46 what do you have a question, I only have one child and the manchild which is my husband that a dog but still and I started you know it’s there’s no work life balance. People make that up, you know, have good weeks where I’m a brilliant mom and I’m making perfect packed lunches and nutritional dinners. And the house is clean. And then I have other weeks where it’s not you know, I have weeks where I’m really efficient with my business and everything smooth and then others where I’m literally finishing things two minutes people they would do and I do now have a virtual assistant and she does handle a lot of the kind of dates they emails because there’s so many people in so many courses who’s going to be you know, X amount of people to date, you can’t login or he caught so she handles a lot of that and I worked quite hard. You know, I was a project manager and pretty good at organizing with time and I’m very good now doing what’s the most important thing you know, so, you know, today I’ve had so so little time one thing I really need to do and I did that first I Eat That Frog as they say you know I do the horrible thing first and but it’s it’s difficult. A lot of tools I use a sauna slack I track my time with toggle and disciplined I come to my office I don’t get up and go and do washing you know, bring my lunch to my office. I sit in my office you know I make the maximum time and then in the evening I do like some things like social media so I used the day for deep work and I do like work when I’m distracted but it’s it’s a challenge and I don’t want to make it sound like I’m sitting in a hammock and doing nothing. It’s it’s a challenge and now it’s a lot easier than it was a couple years ago when I was still full time copywriting and building all this stuff and have like a six year old five year old it’s pretty miserable and so you know I think a lot of people come to me and go you know we should do everything you do like okay well here’s what it’s going to take you know your eye out for that and they’re like oh yeah no i’m not i’m really not and their days I see people in my groups you know and they’re like oh yeah we’re not putting up today so I’m just going to go watch Netflix I’m like you don’t think I would love to watch Netflix Of course I would love to just stop now going to have a foot massage but I don’t you know i’m i’m disciplined to have a bit of willpower and that’s made the difference for me you know so Unknown 34:04 yeah, you’re anything that you do for yourself that helps keep you sane. Unknown 34:08 Oh yeah. I mean I would often have free time It sounds like I’m working like a beast but you know I don’t start till nine and I finished it’s three and I have my weekends yeah you know I walk my dog recent podcast go swimming I have massages hang out with my mates all the all the normal stuff and you know but I pack a lot into that nine separate You know, when I’m working I’m working you know even though I’m on social major Unknown 34:31 I bet for a reason I know Unknown 34:32 that it’s just like look at pictures of cats and you know things like that I’ve done to get stuff done and but yeah I treat myself very well I do look after myself Unknown 34:42 you know the mission is not necessarily things that you don’t necessarily make the plans and content plans and all of that sort of thing but is there any way that you do plan goals like you ever see mentioned before you do have you did have some yearly goals how do you go about creating targets goals for what you want to create Unknown 34:59 for you know last year I kind of pulled a figure out my bottom and just that pretty cool if I could hit that a wouldn’t know that that’s me setting a goal this year I might be pretty cool if I could do that again. So that’s that’s my financial planning Unknown 35:13 about about two years ago I said wouldn’t be great if I could get like 2000 followers on Instagram that would be brilliant when it and then I did not seeing on Instagram to two years and did lots of other things as soon as I give myself a goal I’ll do anything to avoid it so what I do more is think about how do I want this year to look like what I what I want to do this year and like last year I said it was all about connection and public speaking for me next year I really want to do some overseas stuff so my my word for next year is born born which sounds really where anyone can I’m heading to the to the Netherlands to speak and to New York to speak and Unknown 35:50 I want to want to do a couple more so that’s as far as I go and then a lot of it is I just want to keep on keeping on you know like I don’t need some big huge goal that’s going to become make me miserable when I don’t hit it I just want to be able to get up each day and enjoy coming into my office yeah that’s for me that’s a huge goal to enjoy your job and to make money from it and to make help people and make them happy that’s those are pretty good goals I think and Unknown 36:17 yeah bloody is causing Why do you Unknown 36:23 tell me a little bit about how you dealt into the whole world of creating some passive income How did that come about? Well I Unknown 36:30 started off with being copywriter and I had I had a document I came from agency life and an agency like you know everything’s completed you have copied up templates financial templates and when I left for took a lot of that with me not not kind of stealing you know all agencies have them you collect them over the years so I had this thing called a copy deck which is like what what agency copywriters put all the copy for saying website into everything’s in one document is well formatted and Scott and index that of cover sounds really obvious doesn’t it but I started to find the other copywriters we’re just throwing together stuff Times New Roman font sizes all different and they looked really ugly so it made people focus on the format not the words because they couldn’t understand it so I had this copy that thing and I was talking about it and saying oh this is awesome people that can’t have a copy so I’ll be giving people allowing my template and I was like I could charge charge 10 bucks for this what I charge 10 bucks with so I made a little shot on my side started selling it for 10 bucks and then as I could I could make another one could not blog posts maybe I could do one for press releases and it’s got a sampling there and it just grew from there and and I think I’ve sold about 3000 copies of that copy deck now to copywriters all over the world and and then from there you know as I offer short maybe I could have like a directory of copywriters pictures and stuff never could have a membership group and I could sell them they’re gonna want stuff so I’ll make some courses on stuff and then no one event so I’ll do some local events and then I’ll make a conference and so it just grows like that you know and only really only those templates are purely passive because I made them once and I don’t often have to update them and they just sit there the courses there’s anything but passive you know that maintaining them but really it’s the support so when people buy my course they are buying the course materials but where they’re really buying is me for three months to be in the group to answer their questions is coaching calls this q amp a that takes time not a huge amount of time but it does take time and so it’s not purely passive and the other thing of course is you have to market it all constantly you know people don’t just turn up and what about you start to get them there but there’s potential to earn a lot more obviously because you’re not selling 121 you’re sending one too many and so you know that’s what really shifted in my business and that that year to year thing of earning five times more was just really giving up I don’t do any one on one services anymore now know copywriting SEO and I don’t even do very many consultants are you can’t very few offer like you can buy an hour of me because I honestly like that’s a whole hour about my day. What can I do that our can help 50 people rather than just that one person how to put a price on that. So yeah, it’s just really making sure that every bit of my day hits as many people as possible helps as many people not hit. Unknown 39:22 Do you think that you do differently that makes you successful? Unknown 39:28 I don’t know. Can I stop Unknown 39:29 myself? I don’t know. Unknown 39:31 I’m think I’m quite enthusiastic. I think I have a sense of I think I’m funny. I don’t know if anybody else does. But I think I bring a lot of humor into my business. And I’m consistent. I’m not consistent in terms of, you know, regularity and being organized. But I turn up you know, I really do turn up I don’t cancel things. I don’t know if I say I’m going to do something I will really do it. Which is often why I said I’m going to do stuff on social media. So but I have to follow through. Unknown 39:59 So Unknown 40:00 yeah, I think it’s a cool Welsh and I don’t watch as well to where that’s an Australian word, isn’t it? I don’t know. Make it make a word up. Unknown 40:08 I don’t. Unknown 40:10 I don’t. I don’t mess around. I mean, I get things done. I do things quickly. I don’t. I don’t second guess myself either. say like, you know, I think a lot of people worry so much about how they put themselves forward in business about the post that check it 17 times to typos. Is it right? Ask their friends? Should I post it? Oh my god. By then I posted 60 things. Half of them have offended someone. one’s got a typo. The other one I posted in the wrong place with the wrong graphic on the wrong day. Doesn’t matter. People scroll down. I no one’s looking. No one cares. Just Unknown 40:42 just crack on. Unknown 40:45 What’s the worst that can happen? Unknown 40:47 That’s actually be my much. Yeah, that’s almost like stop thinking about what everyone else thinks. You know, I think so. Things have you and just do it. Yeah, people. Shark There you go. Very sharp. Sharp. Unknown 40:58 Sharp doesn’t wake up in the morning and worry about what people think of it. It just is a shark and just does shark stuff Unknown 41:04 all day? No questions. Unknown 41:06 We should all be Moshe. That’s my Unknown 41:08 mantra. Love it. Great segue. Unknown 41:13 I did it. Sorry. Last couple of questions. Sorry. What’s the one of your biggest failures? And what did you learn from it, Unknown 41:21 and all the things I got very much in depth with it with the tax office by just being stupid. That was one. So I learned not to be stupid. one bit of advice I give everybody in businesses, they should get a decent accountant from date dots. And they should get zero or whatever platform QuickBooks but unlike zero and from data by email event, 50 bucks still plan your money. Money is what will kill your business. So plan. I really am a big fan of profit first as well. So I’m very careful about my money now. And the other things would be the usual stuff, you know, you launch your work. So you sell one place, and you’re like, this is embarrassing. And then you have to cancel it. But all those things, it’s just been like, well, run it again. And then you’ll sell five places. And if you sell five, there’s five people are going to love it. Because it was only five of them. And they’re gonna get loads of you. They’re going to tell their friends and then you’ll sell 10. So and obviously, I’ve had a few phone calls online were posted embarrassing stuff, or offensive stuff, or things that I didn’t think would be offensive. And I think that’s it. I fell on. I felt over on the stage event. That was fun. And Unknown 42:28 yeah, that’s about it. Really, Unknown 42:31 so many Unknown 42:32 so many, but I can’t remember them. So then clearly weren’t that bad. Unknown 42:36 Yeah, I think too, it’s also the way that you think about, about families or about things not working, it’s actually not something that completely stopped doing your tracks, he kind of just keep going Unknown 42:46 you do I mean, I’d say the side is phone is all the things in business that had the most the when relationships or partnerships broke down. So you know, when, for whatever reason, someone that you’re working with, or was a customer or in any way, and it goes south, and it’s not. And it says, whatever reason, you can’t get that back those of you some of the saddest things because he can’t be in business for 10 years without having a few people not like you and me for whatever reason. So those would be my side is the things to do a couple of people I’ve lost along the way. And, but generally, other than that, and it’s, you know, it all kind of works out in the end. So here Unknown 43:24 So you mentioned that you working on your fear of public speaking and you went out and you just gone her weight and disease management course. Is there anything working on for yourself between 19 Unknown 43:35 and I think, I think I really need to get my head back in the game a little bit. I want to I want to optimize everything that I have. And I really, I’m actually going to hire someone, oh my god, I’m going to let me I’m actually gonna hire a company to look at my whole business and and just see what they can do to make it better. Because I don’t track or measure anything. I don’t use you know, I have Google Analytics. But I don’t I don’t look a convert. Like if you asked me what my conversion rate is for x. I have no idea. What’s my ROI for this? I don’t know how much money did I make the other night? And because it’s all going well, so I’m just like, it’s going well, why do I care? But, you know, I think it’d be interesting to get someone else’s perspective, however painful it will be, and they go actually, where you do this is dumb. You should do this. And I need to hear that, like, I need someone else’s opinion. I’m gonna hate every living second of it. Because I lived think I know what I’m doing. But that’s my focus. to really optimize what I have not make anything. You just make what I have work as efficiently as possible. That’s my plan to travel the world speaking at events, Unknown 44:42 world domination, not just world domination. Unknown 44:45 Yeah, just a bit. Well, done. Nice to sprinkle that, you know, and just the continue having fun reading and to enjoying my business, because I can’t think of anything else to do. So I’m stuck. But no one would employ me now. I’m stuck doing this. So I’ve really got to try and keep it enjoyable. That’s fine. Unknown 45:03 Yeah, keep that balance and fly. That’s awesome. So last question. If you had to enter two parter. So what’s the best advice you’ve ever been given in regards to business? And what advice would you give someone who is in business that’s possibly having a hard time and wanting to get to that 10 year successful stage? Unknown 45:24 I think the best advice that you know, Unknown 45:27 would probably be, you can only do what you can do, which I know that sounds really silly. But I think we all put an awful lot of pressure on ourselves to do all the things and to be everywhere, and we look at people who are down again, we don’t know what’s behind the scenes. We don’t know their financial situation. Yeah, they look like they’re doing is amazing stuff. But, you know, that could be miserable. So I think we put too much pressure on ourselves, we can only do what we can do. Usually it’s enough, you know, so that’s pretty tweet. But I think it’s important to take the pressure off yourself because you myself miserable and I mean, you’re miserable, you’re not productive. And then it’s, you’re doing even less than you could, you shouldn’t do and, and I think for someone who’s struggling and I think, you know, you need to really look up why you’re struggling and what you want to achieve. And you need to give yourself time period. Because, look, running your own business isn’t everybody. That’s why everyone isn’t doing it is really hard. It’s you have to be brave, you have to be resourceful. You have to be good at so many different things, you know, beyond what your actual core skill set is. You become an accountant, a marketer a diplomat at speaker it’s it’s really hard and so I think it has to enjoy the process. I don’t know if you’ve read the book The subtle art of not giving a F Unknown 46:41 and and you know, he talks about how you’ve got to enjoy the process not always be thinking about the end results and you know, someone who wins Madison’s enjoys running Unknown 46:51 you know, if you enjoy running, Unknown 46:53 you’re never going to win American. So if you don’t enjoy the boring repetitiveness of opening emails, reconciling your zero posting things on Hootsuite, if you don’t enjoy that, then you’re never going to get the end result. Because that is the process. So I think that would be my advice. Make sure that you really enjoy the process. And you’re not just doing this because you think it’d be cool because a lot of time running your own business is hard and boring. And sometimes it’s great, but a lot of time it’s just pretty hard and board and I think people forget that, you know. Unknown 47:22 Yeah, absolutely. Right. We see that the end result we see the beautiful images on Instagram. You can guess what it’s like it’s actually crock of you know, you know, Unknown 47:30 surely his buddy is this. He said, Oh, yeah, Unknown 47:35 absolutely. Well, I want to thank you so much for your time today. And your insights and your humor and just your realness of His love, how you really don’t care. And it’s more about just being real and honest. I think it’s awesome. So thank you. Thank you. It’s been an honor to be on your podcast and thank you very much for having me. It’s been a pleasure. Thank you so much. Okay, awesome.